Christmas Bible Study: John's Salvation Metaphors (and much more)

In this episode, The Rev. Aaron and Elizabeth Ross join us to discuss the Bible readings you'll hear this week during Bedtime Chapel. We met Aaron and Elizabeth at the consecration of Bishop Julia Whitworth in the Diocese of Massachusetts. Our shared need for childcare at the bishop's seating made us fast friends. And we've continued to bond over a love of the Enneagram and a desire to make church a place of welcome for young kids. Aaron is the curate at St. John the Evangelist, Duxbury. Elizabeth is a spiritual director and writer with an emphasis on noticing sacred light within the spiritual journey, creative practice, and family life.

Key moments in our conversation include:

  • 00:30 How Forming Children in the Faith Changed You

  • 03:33 Children and the Eucharist

  • 08:03 Welcoming Children as Full Members of the Church

  • 10:51 St. Joseph as Exemplar for Parents

  • 14:59 Noticing the Incarnate God

  • 20:28 John's Salvation Metaphors

Things we talked about on this episode:

Stay Connected to Elizabeth Ross:

If you missed it, check out our other Bible Study discussion with Aaron and Elizabeth that covered the readings for Advent 4 and the early days of Christmas.

00:00:00 Natalie Thomas

Hello, and welcome to Bedtime Chapel's weekly scripture study episode. I'm Natalie Thomas.

 

00:00:05 James Thomas

And I'm James Thomas. We're deacons in the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts.

 

00:00:08 Natalie Thomas

Bedtime Chapel grew out of a shared desire of ours to support families who are trying to center Jesus in a post Christian world.

 

00:00:15 James Thomas

We offer a nightly prayer service that includes a short gospel reading. In this episode, we'll be covering more readings for Christmastide.

 

00:00:23 Natalie Thomas

And we are here today with Deacon Aaron and Elizabeth Ross, who we know from our shared ministry in the diocese.

 

00:00:30 James Thomas

So last week, we were so pleased to have you introduce yourselves. So instead of recapitulating a biographical statement, we're going to ask you to share a little bit about your experience in forming children in the faith. How has it influenced your own relationship with the church and your own understanding of Jesus?

 

00:00:47 Elizabeth Ross

Well, our experience is probably a little more intense than maybe in other families. But we became parents in 2021, and just a few weeks after I gave birth, we moved to Aaron's Seminary. And so we began this three year journey of religious education where our children got to watch. And so our oldest was taken to class and chapel and integrated very easily into community gatherings.

 

00:01:17 Elizabeth Ross

And she got to watch everything from the baby carrier or the stroller or even participating in the Eucharist. And so that was a very, very intense period of formation for our family altogether. Even though not all of us were in classes, but we were able to have our daily routine shaped by life on campus.

 

00:01:39 Elizabeth Ross

And so that was everything that you could think of, from vestments to theological conversations to the cross to religious art, to everything from a child's perspective. She was taking it in all that to say we are still a very ordinary family. We are not, you know, on our high horse about any of that.

 

 

 

00:01:58 Elizabeth Ross

And we do make mistakes and learning as we go, as we've added children to our family. And so we have gotten very, very good at apologizing to our children and recognizing where we've gone wrong in our parenting, which ultimately our repentance has been one of the ways that we've reflected the reality of the Gospel and the Incarnation in our family.

 

00:02:20 Elizabeth Ross

And so this has really impacted my own relationship with Christ and the church. To be able to get down on my knees with my children and be able to tell them that I make a mistake, that I am accountable to the Lord in how I handle these things, and that together we're going to make it right and make peace.

 

00:02:39 Elizabeth Ross

And so what more is the Gospel than that?

 

00:02:45 Aaron Ross

I don't know if you both or the audience can tell. But Elizabeth is just an amazing, amazing mom. Yeah, I'm really lucky to be married to her. So kind of echoing Liz's thoughts, I can maybe give it a little bit practical here, but during my time in seminary, I brought Amelia, who was three weeks old, everywhere with me.

 

00:03:05 Aaron Ross

I brought her to chapel, I brought her to class. So to a degree, my daughter was kind of raised at the chapel in Virginia Theological Seminary. And the gift of that was observation in what she was able to see. There was a moment, I remember where my daughter was playing around and she, she, she had her hands cupped in a certain way, kind of like when you're receiving communion.

 

00:03:33 Aaron Ross

And she said, look, look, Papa, look. And then I realized. It took me a minute, but then I realized that actually she was practicing taking communion. And we began to practice that during the week. Amelia, communion practice, taking communion. She'd put her hands out like that. And then soon after, when it came to a eucharistic service at the seminary, she went up and she received for the first time both elements.

 

 

00:03:58 Aaron Ross

And here's a girl that, a little girl that I didn't have a very formal conversation with about her baptism and what that meant and anything like that. It just came through observation. And she is a card carrying member of the Episcopal Church. I do want to give a little bit of an understanding here that in our tradition as Anglicans, as Episcopalians, upon baptism, anyone can receive communion.

 

00:04:24 Aaron Ross

So I highly suggest to parents with their littles is that if your kid is interested, please allow them to receive the Blessed Sacrament. An argument that I often hear about that is, oh, they don't understand what's happening at that table. Well, folks, do any of us really understand what's going on around that table?

 

00:04:40 Aaron Ross

It's a table like any other, but it's a table like no other. And give your children an opportunity to participate in that mystery that I think that we all do. And obviously I'm not in seminary anymore, so how is my daughter kind of experiencing her spirituality is I still take her places. She comes to the rail on Sundays and she receives.

 

00:05:03 Aaron Ross

She has a relationship with our priest. Right. I think that's also important. And I also take her to weekly eucharistic services, actually outside of a Sunday. So I think Elizabeth said it best. We are so not perfect. But through bringing them into these sacred spaces, it will have an impact if you allow it.

 

00:05:27 Elizabeth Ross

I also want to add that there is an element of children being in those sacred spaces, like having our children have experience in the cathedral to a Convent to chapels, they have all of these different places of exposure, but they also have the opportunities to process through play. And so when they're home, when we're even in a sacred space, like we are in a bodily form kind of reenacting what's happening and playing with the ideas that are presented there.

 

00:06:00 Elizabeth Ross

And so we're talking maybe at home or we're being silly about some things. There's still some reverence, but it's a lot of play too, where we're able to kind of learn about that, what we've just observed through play.

 

00:06:13 Aaron Ross

I think something I want to add to that too is one time I was having a conversation with my daughter and she was talking about Jesus. And I said, amelia, who is Jesus to you? And she goes, Father Daniel, that's the priest at our parish. And I realized that she was actually touching on something really deep.

 

00:06:31 Aaron Ross

Outwardly that sounds really cute, but I think as we notice in the Eucharistic prayer, the priest takes on the words of Jesus, this is my body, this is my blood. Right. So there was this element where she got the person wrong, but she got the understanding correct that she's understanding that God is present within the elements.

 

00:06:52 Aaron Ross

It was less about Father Daniel, but she knew that Christ was present at that table. This is a three-year-old who was able to pick that up. And it came through having a conversation with my three-year-old, not thinking that she is silly. Right. That there was a, there was a depth there.

 

00:07:07 Aaron Ross

And that kind of piggybacks off what Liz is saying about, you know, just playing and conversing and allowing that to be a part of our daily lives.

 

00:07:16 Natalie Thomas

I love that you're connecting knowing God, not to a mental understanding and explanation of God, but really of an experience of God. And I completely agree with you that as our children experience the Eucharist, as we experience Eucharist on a daily basis, I might not be able to make sense of it and explain it to someone, but I become begin to know Jesus more in depth.

 

00:07:41 Natalie Thomas

And we'll see that same thing throughout the Gospel readings as the disciples are literally experiencing the feeding stories, experiencing the healings. And it's only after multiple repetitions that they're able to verbalize what's happening. Potentially not ever, you know, that they're just able to know Jesus and know that there's something very special about him in that moment.

 

00:08:03 James Thomas

Yeah, and I love this vibe of encouragement. The four of us seated around this table right now, we have between us four children, all of whom are, I guess, Preschool age. Right. And my older daughter, at a very young age, maybe 16, 18 months, sat like a perfect little angel through an entire choral, evensong at the National Cathedral

 

00:08:28 James Thomas

And I was as surprised as anybody else. And a couple of weeks ago, she had to be carted out of here during a regular Sunday Eucharist because it just wasn't her day. And that's okay. And that's okay. Keep bringing your kids to church. Keep having your kids participate in the liturgy. Bring your kids to the high holy days.

 

00:08:51 James Thomas

Bring your kids to Maundy Thursday to Good Friday. Bring your kids to the great vigil of Easter. I sincerely, sincerely hope that wherever it is that you are worshiping, your children feel especially welcome there. That is. I know that's. I think we need to be honest. That's probably not always the case, but it's certainly our prayer for all of you.

 

00:09:08 James Thomas

If you are listening to this, keep going and keep encouraging, and some days will be better than others, and that's okay.

 

00:09:14 Natalie Thomas

Yeah.

 

00:09:14 James Thomas

And God knows our kids and your kids in all. All of those ways, in all those contexts.

 

00:09:19 Natalie Thomas

And if it's not working, we hope that we can be a resource for you. So if you are a parent in a church and you're listening to this and you're thinking, wow, I wish I could bring my kids to church. And there was such abandon and openness. Reach out to us because we want to be a resource to help you think through what a service might look like.

 

00:09:36 Natalie Thomas

And, you know, our service at night. We understand that the liturgy is very similar, to, quote, formal liturgy, but we hope it can be a space, like Liz just said, where you can pause, you can ask questions if your kids need something in their hands, like prayer beads. We want this to be a place where they get to know God in a graciousness and an openness.

 

00:09:56 Natalie Thomas

And we hope that this is what that service offers to you.

 

00:09:59 Aaron Ross

Yeah, I just wanted to speak on church. When I went to seminary, one of the things you have to do is find a field placement. So my first year of seminary, we went to so many different churches, and we also had to make some priorities. Right. What are. What are. What are the priorities of your family when you're looking for a church?

 

00:10:16 Aaron Ross

And for us, it was a space that would be comfortable for my littles and also for my spouse who is nursing, for my spouse who needs to run off to the restroom to change a diaper. You know, what is the vibe? Are they okay with noises? Not every space is open to that.

 

00:10:32 Aaron Ross

We have Gotten our fair share of dirty looks in church with a little no space is perfect. But I think if as a family, if you make this a priority within your life, it will change your life, but have your priorities right. And I think Bedtime chapel offers a great resource to help figure that out.

 

00:10:50 Aaron Ross

So I just wanted to give that plug.

 

00:10:51 Natalie Thomas

Thanks, Aaron. Yeah, thanks. And I am going to ask you specifically a question, Aaron, because in this week we get to hear Joseph's side of the story. And he is someone who, for a woman, I can say understandably, kind of gets bypassed. The attention goes to the person who carried Jesus. But we, we really that this reading from Matthew lifts up the role he had in accompanying Mary as her role as the God-bearer.

 

00:11:20 Natalie Thomas

And we're curious for you specifically how St. Joseph has influenced your experience of being a father and a husband.

 

00:11:28 Aaron Ross

Yeah, I love this question. When I think of the kind of dad I want to be, I kind of want to be a Joseph. And a lot of this viewpoint stems from actually a sermon from the Reverend Dr. Howard John Wesley of Alfred street in Alexandria, one of the largest African Baptist congregations on the East Coast.

 

00:11:47 Aaron Ross

It is an amazing place and Dr. Wesley is really gifted. So he gave three, three points of a sermon that I thought I'd share with you all. And, and that has a deep impact on me. And the first is that we rarely hear Joseph speak within the text, but he's present, right. His actions spoke a lot more than his words or what the Gospel is willing to reveal to us.

 

00:12:12 Aaron Ross

And I think it's also helpful to. To mention that he was a father to a son that wasn't his, but he raised that son like his, like his own. Joseph was. Was faithfully serving in the background. And that was really convicting to me. For someone who likes to be the center of attention and also wants the glory about.

 

00:12:34 Aaron Ross

Sometimes it's just about staying faithful, keeping your head down, and just being a dad, not being any more than that second. I thought that from my understanding, Joseph really demonstrated a remarkable faith in the face of uncertainty. He said yes. He said yes to God, he said yes to that little baby, and he humbly submitted to God's plan.

 

00:12:56 Aaron Ross

And for me, I am someone who does not do well with the lack of information. And also one of the most difficult things a therapist actually told me one of the most difficult things that someone can go through is transition. It's one of the most difficult things. And if you're having a lot of transitions in a short period of time, that can really affect your life.

 

00:13:16 Aaron Ross

Negatively. And I can't imagine what Joseph and Mary were experiencing in that short period of time in the birth of Jesus. But Joseph was faithful and he was the father to the Son of God. Right. Raising him as his own. And that to me, I really has just been impacted by. And number three, I think this is also really significant and really practical was he showed extraordinary character in how he treated Mary, that he had a reason to publicly shame her and instead he chose not to.

 

00:13:51 Aaron Ross

I think it is very easy to speak ill of your partner or your spouse out in public. And as Pastor Wesley said, you know, sometimes grown folk talk needs to happen behind closed doors, not out in the open. And that is a really great model. No marriage is perfect and there will be arguments, your partner will get on your nerves sometimes.

 

00:14:17 Aaron Ross

But grown folk talk needs to happen behind closed doors. And I think that was a really important lesson for me to not speak ill of, of Liz out, out in the, in the public sphere.

 

00:14:33 James Thomas

On to our next question. Thank you for that. Thank you for that beautiful answer. So we're still in the twelve days of Christmas and we're obviously focusing on the wonder that is the incarnate Christ. Our liturgy here during this season includes the prayer God Dwelt among Us. Alleluia. How do you help your kids notice the incarnate God in home and in world?

 

00:14:59 James Thomas

And arguably, more importantly, how do your kids help you see the incarnate God in your home and in the world?

 

00:15:10 Aaron Ross

So I'll just speak specifically to my daughter. And so Amelia has a really sweet habit of that when she meets people and it's very particular to strangers. I think I mentioned this in the last episode. She declares usually that she loves them. Oh, I love them, Papa, I love them. And we have to do a lot of work in establishing boundaries that we can't necessarily like, love strangers immediately.

 

00:15:38 Aaron Ross

But there is something in her that is seeing something good, like seeing God's dwelling in people. And I think that's what, what she seemed like for me, I think, and I, and I think I said, I think I said this in the last episode too. Like, kids have a sense of recognizing goodness.

 

00:15:58 Aaron Ross

And within our family, we are trying to do, we're trying, right, to do the job of naming that goodness not only in other people, but also within themselves, within their bodies. You know, our. We do a really sweet affirmation with our 3 year old where she goes, I am brave, I am kind, I am strong.

 

00:16:21 Aaron Ross

And she says that to herself. And it is just the sweetest thing because it's almost like she's reminding me to myself that I can be brave, kind and strong too. She is modeling that when she says it to herself, it's just really sweet. And then also that our 3 year old's body is good.

 

00:16:42 Aaron Ross

She's a sweet little girl and her body is good to give her the space and the avenue of recognizing that. And part of that is our job saying, you know, Amelia, your body is good and no one can tell you otherwise.

 

00:16:56 Elizabeth Ross

So the incarnation of Christ is inherently physical and that's what's so powerful about it. And so generally, in a broad sweep, we try to put beautiful things in the path of our children for them to have a relationship with those things, whether it's the created world, other people, the story of their own body, the story of their own life.

 

00:17:24 Elizabeth Ross

And so that comes from an idea that most things in life, when you're teaching your children, are caught, not taught. And so what you're modeling is going to be the best instruction for them. Rather than the words coming out of your mouth, even though you say things over and over, over, what you're saying to them is really through your actions, through the embodiment of your beliefs.

 

00:17:47 Elizabeth Ross

Kind of leaning on the orthopraxy in this stage. So singing praises, singing prayers around the dinner table. We are speaking kindly about other people, we're speaking kindly about our own selves, our own bodies, talking about original goodness rather than maybe original sinfulness, talking about how we relate to one another and knowing that that's all coming from a basis of God's goodness in our own selves, in our life.

 

00:18:15 Elizabeth Ross

A personal practice that has helped me is baby gazing. And this came from my spiritual direction training where we look upon our children prayerfully and whether they're playing. Usually it's a calmer moment. This is not something that we're doing in the middle of a meltdown. But this is something that while they're playing, while they're eating, I can stop for 30 seconds, for two minutes, however long they allow.

 

00:18:40 Elizabeth Ross

And I can just prayerfully look on them in gratitude. And it's a really great meditative way to just be thankful to God for them and see that God is moving in their life in the same way that God is moving in my life.

 

00:18:54 Aaron Ross

I want to give a quick shout out to Steve Green. I don't know if you know who he is. Liz is laughing. He's an artist. He passed away actually a couple years ago. But he has these two children albums where he takes scripture and has made some tunes for Them and my daughter's learning scripture through that way.

 

00:19:15 Aaron Ross

There's this one that I find myself singing in the house, and I hear her in across the room or in another room begin to sing with me. And he goes, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And then she says it back to me, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

00:19:37 Aaron Ross

And that's how she's picking it up. I'm gonna say this, though. I just wanna apologize to all the parents now for the music that's about to be in your car for the next few months. It will not turn off.

 

00:19:47 Natalie Thomas

I'm really connecting to what y'all were just saying. I loved what you said about baby gazing and paying attention to the holiness that's just in the moment and to the holiness it's in ourselves. You know, I think that if we want our kids to see themselves as good, that comes from a place of love.

 

00:20:04 Natalie Thomas

And it's really, really taught me or sharpened in me the ability to love myself and to be a person of delight around the house. So our last question for today comes from the readings in John that we get into, where we hear a series of John's salvation metaphors. The spring of living water being the good shepherd, the.

 

00:20:28 Natalie Thomas

And the truth. And all of these metaphors come right after this encounter of Jesus as an infant. And I'm curious what you think we might. Or how we might make sense of this juxtaposition of the vulnerability of an infant right up against the power of the One who saves us.

 

00:20:51 Elizabeth Ross

So when I'm reading these metaphors, I was really struck by how each of them are pointing to everlasting satisfaction, where our wants and our needs are going to be fully met by Christ. And he is a confident, devoted security in our lives. And so when I see the intersection of vulnerability and power, I really see this hallmark of the kingdom of God, where it's turning all of these hierarchies that we have in our earthly world on its head.

 

00:21:21 Elizabeth Ross

And so, with paradox and mystery, which are key to the kingdom of God, it seems God is offering us his own tenderness, willing to be broken unprotected in the form of this baby in the incarnation. It's truly a sign of the most powerful love, most amazing offering of love, to be. Have so much power and so much authority within oneself to offer us, offer themselves to us for the sake of relationship and love.

 

00:21:56 Aaron Ross

You know, the metaphors, the power of metaphors. I think, for me, I think I mentioned this in the last episode too, about How God uses ordinary things for extraordinary purposes, right? Like, you know, this. I had a professor, Dr. Farwell, if you're listening, shout out to you. He said that the Eucharistic table is a table like any other, but a table like no other.

 

00:22:18 Aaron Ross

Just like the people of God are a people like any other, but a people like no other. And how God is using ordinary things in his metaphor, in his metaphors, excuse me, like water, right, the shepherd. And using these things to express the kingdom of God. And I've just been really taken by that.

 

00:22:43 Aaron Ross

How God uses ordinary things for extraordinary purposes and how God uses a very ordinary experience, right, Of a manger, actually a lowly experience, a lowly place for his divine purposes. I think that juxtaposition for me really flips what the world tells us of what is value, what is of value, like money, right?

 

00:23:07 Aaron Ross

Things, items, social class. And what God says is like true power, comes from humble means. And remembering those means and remembering those places. I am reminded of this paradox through the elements that we use right for the sacraments, the body, the bread and the wine, that God can take ordinary things and make them extraordinary, can make them more than what they are.

 

00:23:33 James Thomas

Well, thank you so much to Aaron and Elizabeth for joining us again today. We have two weeks down and one week to go with the two of you, for which we're so thankful for the week to come. And thank you to Natalie for being on this Bedtime Chapel journey with me. Thank you to the wider community of people praying with us, that great cloud of witnesses out there in the wide world, which we do know, at least in a few spots.

 

00:23:58 James Thomas

Our podbean website tells us there's a few of you out there far flung from us, and we're very grateful to all of you. We'd also like to shout out a young fella who's here at the parish where we are presently serving, who said that he likes the podcast and it helps him sleep.

 

00:24:16 James Thomas

He sleeps better after the podcast and it was surprising to hear him say that. And we're very, very grateful. We're very grateful. And me too. Me too. It's become a special part of our routine every night. We want to stay in touch with you. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram as Bedtime Chapel.

 

00:24:32 James Thomas

Follow us, let us know what's working, what's not working for you. You can always email us bedtimechapel gmail dot com. That's our handle all around Bedtime Chapel. And until next time, we'll be praying with you.

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Christmas & Epiphany Bible Study -- How to Notice the Sacred in Home Life

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Advent & Christmastide Bible Study: What does it require to follow Jesus?